ranger isn't forcing their beliefs on any of us though so i think they're fine to believe whatever they wish about the ethics of copying on a cultural/societal level
9:39 PM
i just disagree
9:39 PM
they haven't done anything wrong though let's be clear
9:39 PM
just a different opinion
Reisen
Tewi: The word tulpa has nothing to do with Tibet anymore, that's our stance. We stole the term from metaphysical circles to use for a less-metaphysical lookalike phenomenon (to the paranormal one). (edited)
I think it's worthwhile to point out the term (and community) originated on /x/
9:40 PM
we don't have to carry their language forwards
sh
ranger isn't forcing their beliefs on any of us though so i think they're fine to believe whatever they wish about the ethics of copying on a cultural/societal level
well, that's why i asked how Ranger is going to feel about other people using the word if they are starting to develop a strong emotional reaction to it, especially calling it racist
for example, i couldn't stand to be around people who use n-word(edited)
Ulithium_Dragon | Maledy | Freya
Why is everyone so hyper focused on race and culture isolationism these days... Humans frequently take inspiration from each other, and from other countries.
Yes, there are horrible attocitied being commited in Tibet at present. But why would that mean we should isolate their culture and say "only they can use that stuff." By instead CELEBRATING their culture, and saying "hey, these guys are pretty smart and enlightened, I'd like to learn more about their practices", you not only validate them, but also bring attention to them, which inadvertently highlights whatever the current state of the culture is.
That is fine, but the term tulpa does the opposite- it basically says our version of what we think how Buddhism works is more important than what it actually is
From what I have heard and read, western tulpas have nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhist practice. To my understanding, it consists of:
Creating godforms and
Making an identity only to laugh and say personalitys aren't real
I don't... what. How is using a term for something else invalidating the origins?
9:41 PM
I can't follow your argument.
9:41 PM
There are thousands of words that have multiple, completely differnet meanings in every langauge(edited)
1
A long kiss goodnight
That is fine, but the term tulpa does the opposite- it basically says our version of what we think how Buddhism works is more important than what it actually is
From what I have heard and read, western tulpas have nothing to do with Tibetan Buddhist practice. To my understanding, it consists of:
Creating godforms and
Making an identity only to laugh and say personalitys aren't real
I would also like to use a new set of words--while it does not make me uncomfortable to see the word tulpa, I do think the community would be better served with a new set of phrases, and the origins of the word are still rooted in colonialism. It may be low-impact, but there is nothing stopping the community from making multiple changes at once :)
KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk
well, that's why i asked how Ranger is going to feel about other people using the word if they are starting to develop a strong emotional reaction to it, especially calling it racist
for example, i couldn't stand to be around people who use n-word (edited)
I don’t think tulpa is anything like the n-word, my golly.
At the moment, I do know the issue is complicated. Even if tulpa is unquestionably racist, the Tibetan Buddhists may want us to use tulpa anyway so they have one more group of people talking about them and their culture. They face censorship and totalitarian squashing from China.
Given that and the fact I defended the term tulpa in the past, how can I be mad at people for using tulpa? I can't even say definitively if it's racist
A long kiss goodnight
I don’t think tulpa is anything like the n-word, my golly.
At the moment, I do know the issue is complicated. Even if tulpa is unquestionably racist, the Tibetan Buddhists may want us to use tulpa anyway so they have one more group of people talking about them and their culture. They face censorship and totalitarian squashing from China.
Given that and the fact I defended the term tulpa in the past, how can I be mad at people for using tulpa? I can't even say definitively if it's racist
I have now seen 2 people say the same thing about totalitarianism towards the tibetan ethnic minority from China--does anyone have a source that is not RFA or the Tibetan Government in Exile?
I disagree, to my knowledge dragons aren't misinterpreting an oppressed group of people's religion
A long kiss goodnight
I don’t think tulpa is anything like the n-word, my golly.
At the moment, I do know the issue is complicated. Even if tulpa is unquestionably racist, the Tibetan Buddhists may want us to use tulpa anyway so they have one more group of people talking about them and their culture. They face censorship and totalitarian squashing from China.
Given that and the fact I defended the term tulpa in the past, how can I be mad at people for using tulpa? I can't even say definitively if it's racist
I would agree with Ranger here--there is little resemblance between the relation of dragons across cultures (people just like big lizards I spose!) and tulpas (a plural experience that is not related to the original source material we drew the word from)
so... who's gonna tell pleeb that they have to buy a new domain?
A long kiss goodnight
I don’t think tulpa is anything like the n-word, my golly.
At the moment, I do know the issue is complicated. Even if tulpa is unquestionably racist, the Tibetan Buddhists may want us to use tulpa anyway so they have one more group of people talking about them and their culture. They face censorship and totalitarian squashing from China.
Given that and the fact I defended the term tulpa in the past, how can I be mad at people for using tulpa? I can't even say definitively if it's racist
I'm sorry, in that argument I was saying even if. I don't think tulpa is unquestionably racist, I just think it's racist. I need to prove it's racist first, and even then I doubt I can unquestionably prove it(edited)
I'm sorry, in that argument I was saying even if. I don't think tulpa is unquestionably racist, I just think it's racist. I need to prove it's racist first, and even then I doubt I can unquestionably prove it (edited)
I'm sorry, in that argument I was saying even if. I don't think tulpa is unquestionably racist, I just think it's racist. I need to prove it's racist first, and even then I doubt I can unquestionably prove it (edited)
I think you may struggle to find sources for proving the word tulpa is racist specifically--however, you could construct an argument that it is using academic sources on the origins of racism-in-language; good resources are almost certainly abundant if you look for American history on racialized language :)
@sh - jump
yearly, yes. I pay for one for $12/year, although I will have to migrate because google sold their domain sale service
A long kiss goodnight
I'm sorry, in that argument I was saying even if. I don't think tulpa is unquestionably racist, I just think it's racist. I need to prove it's racist first, and even then I doubt I can unquestionably prove it (edited)
I feel it's too much to ask that right now. I just want to explain why I'm switching to comate for my sanity, I don't want to ask for other people to do anything until I have things written out and well researched
With all this talk of rascism surrounding the term, I think we missed the biggest question:
Is us using the term in the way we are using it actually hurting anyone?(edited)
With all this talk of rascism surrounding the term, I think we missed the biggest question:
Is us using the term in the way we are using it actually hurting anyone? (edited)
I can't say it's hurting anyone other than some people I met online. Hence why I want to find people to talk to.
I do know that there are a lot of people who use tulpa in a racist way- like selling tulpamancy as this mystical Buddhist practice for hundreds of dollars.
Ulithium_Dragon | Maledy | Freya
With all this talk of rascism surrounding the term, I think we missed the biggest question:
Is us using the term in the way we are using it actually hurting anyone? (edited)
I think it may be that the usage of the phrase may cause incorrect associations in people's minds surrounding Tibetan Buddhism--this is similar to parodies of Native American religious practices forming the cultural idea of what it is in people's minds. We can also see the two instances of "tulpas" being mentioned by name in popular media (Adventure Time, Supernatural) as an instance of this
I can't say it's hurting anyone other than some people I met online. Hence why I want to find people to talk to.
I do know that there are a lot of people who use tulpa in a racist way- like selling tulpamancy as this mystical Buddhist practice for hundreds of dollars.
I can't say it's hurting anyone other than some people I met online. Hence why I want to find people to talk to.
I do know that there are a lot of people who use tulpa in a racist way- like selling tulpamancy as this mystical Buddhist practice for hundreds of dollars.
lmao people pay to have their abilities stunted?? this is incredible (negative)
A long kiss goodnight
I can't say it's hurting anyone other than some people I met online. Hence why I want to find people to talk to.
I do know that there are a lot of people who use tulpa in a racist way- like selling tulpamancy as this mystical Buddhist practice for hundreds of dollars.
I'll kind of reiterate my thoughts in here for those looking for context, as when we were discussing this previously. These are some stray thoughts / info dumps
Alexandra David-Neel was french, though her guide, Kazi Dawa Samdup was Tibetian. He was a headmaster at that British school that Ranger mentioned, and worked on several translation projects, including help with authoring the Tibetian Book of the Dead.
According to Tracking the Tulpa (N. Mikles & J. Laycok), from the Journal of Emergent Religions (2015), (which I'm pulling most direct quotes from):
The tulpa was first described by Alexandra David-Neel (1868-1969) in Magic and Mystery in Tibet (1929) and is still regarded as a Tibetan concept. However, the idea of the tulpa is more indebted to Theosophy than to Tibetan Buddhism. This article explores the murky origins of the tulpa to show how the concept emerged from a dialogue between East and West in which Theosophical metaphysics were combined with terms adapted from Tibetan Buddhism.
It goes on to note
Significantly, both David-Neel and Evans-Wentz had backgrounds in
Theosophy and relied on the translation services of Kazi Dawa Samdup
(1868-1923), who was educated at the Butia Boarding School in
Darjeeling, a school created to train interpreters and geographers to
advance British interests in Tibet.8 Samdup became an important interpreter
for the British and an influential translator. Although not a monk,
he apparently had an interest in religion and esotericism. David-Neel
described him as "an occultist and even, in a certain way, a mystic."9
**Whatever Samdup's metaphysical interests were, they almost certainly
shaped how David-Neel and Evans-Wentz came to understand tulpas.**
9:56 PM
I think some of the arguments that tulpa is a racist term is noting that Alexandra misunderstood another term, but I probably wouldn't equate tiilkus with tulpas, because even David-Neel identified that they were different things:
The earliest mention of tulpas appeared in Magic and Mystery in Tibet
(1929) by Alexandra David-Neel (1868-1969), who defined tulpa as
"phantoms." She explained that tulpas were related to tulkus, which she
said were "forms created by magic.
. . . .
By David-Neel's own admission, the difference between tulpa and tulku
is murky; tulpas are created by magicians while tiilkus are an aspect of
buddhas and bodhisattvas and are more enduring.5
. . . .
Tiilkus and tulpas appear again in Walter Evans-Wentz' [also helped translate Book Of The Dead] (1878-1965) version of The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation ( 1954), where he built on David-Neel's distinction ... "The Tibetans call the One Mind's concretized visualization the Khorva (Hkhorva), equivalent to the Sanskrit Sangsara [samsara]; that of an incarnate deity, like the Dalai or Tashi Lama [Panchen Lama], they call a Tul-ku (Sprul-sku), and that of a magician a Tul-pa (Sprul-pa), meaning a magically produced illusion or creation.7"
It looks like David-Neel equated Tulpas to thought-forms which were at least a thing heavily discussed in the Book of the Dead, and Thoughtforms were more in line with Theosophical metaphysics (which was Russian-American). Since we know that Samdup studied Theosophy, that may be a factor.
9:56 PM
There's also another academic paper that I've been slowly trying to get through on and off, "Of Offal, Corpses, and Others: An Examination of Self, Subjectivity, and Authenticity in Two Works by Alexandra David-Neel" -- which references a quote (which I cannot acquire the source from) from the Dalai Lama that states:
“Its [ the book] great merit is that it conveys the authentic flavor of Tibet as she found it, described with affectionate humor. Perhaps scholars and historians today would challenge many of the author’s opinions, but this does not affect her work’s intrinsic worth” ( Gyatso i). The idea that one of the leading voices on Tibetan history and culture would claim that a westerner was able to provide a level of authenticity regarding his culture is a significant statement. Indeed, the idea that a western woman could produce an authentic Tibet within her books is in direct contradiction with much post-colonial theory.
(Page 22, section "II. SKELETONS OF THE “OTHER”: POST-COLONIALISM AND NARRATOLOGY")
I'll take some time to read that whole section to see if this paper is tearing this all down or not, or validating his statement.(edited)
blanka
I think it may be that the usage of the phrase may cause incorrect associations in people's minds surrounding Tibetan Buddhism--this is similar to parodies of Native American religious practices forming the cultural idea of what it is in people's minds. We can also see the two instances of "tulpas" being mentioned by name in popular media (Adventure Time, Supernatural) as an instance of this
The west already doesn't understand Buddhism. I can see the validity of this argument. However, I can't find anyting that states that the buddhist term even sounds or is spelled the same as "tulpa". Its not even really the same word, even when its pronouced, is it? We don't even share the same alphabet as their language does.
The west already doesn't understand Buddhism. I can see the validity of this argument. However, I can't find anyting that states that the buddhist term even sounds or is spelled the same as "tulpa". Its not even really the same word, even when its pronouced, is it? We don't even share the same alphabet as their language does.
I'll kind of reiterate my thoughts in here for those looking for context, as when we were discussing this previously. These are some stray thoughts / info dumps
Alexandra David-Neel was french, though her guide, Kazi Dawa Samdup was Tibetian. He was a headmaster at that British school that Ranger mentioned, and worked on several translation projects, including help with authoring the Tibetian Book of the Dead.
According to Tracking the Tulpa (N. Mikles & J. Laycok), from the Journal of Emergent Religions (2015), (which I'm pulling most direct quotes from):
The tulpa was first described by Alexandra David-Neel (1868-1969) in Magic and Mystery in Tibet (1929) and is still regarded as a Tibetan concept. However, the idea of the tulpa is more indebted to Theosophy than to Tibetan Buddhism. This article explores the murky origins of the tulpa to show how the concept emerged from a dialogue between East and West in which Theosophical metaphysics were combined with terms adapted from Tibetan Buddhism.
It goes on to note
Significantly, both David-Neel and Evans-Wentz had backgrounds in
Theosophy and relied on the translation services of Kazi Dawa Samdup
(1868-1923), who was educated at the Butia Boarding School in
Darjeeling, a school created to train interpreters and geographers to
advance British interests in Tibet.8 Samdup became an important interpreter
for the British and an influential translator. Although not a monk,
he apparently had an interest in religion and esotericism. David-Neel
described him as "an occultist and even, in a certain way, a mystic."9
**Whatever Samdup's metaphysical interests were, they almost certainly
shaped how David-Neel and Evans-Wentz came to understand tulpas.**
I still take issue with calling any of this "rascist", though. At worst, it's cultural appropriation.
Pleeb
I think some of the arguments that tulpa is a racist term is noting that Alexandra misunderstood another term, but I probably wouldn't equate tiilkus with tulpas, because even David-Neel identified that they were different things:
The earliest mention of tulpas appeared in Magic and Mystery in Tibet
(1929) by Alexandra David-Neel (1868-1969), who defined tulpa as
"phantoms." She explained that tulpas were related to tulkus, which she
said were "forms created by magic.
. . . .
By David-Neel's own admission, the difference between tulpa and tulku
is murky; tulpas are created by magicians while tiilkus are an aspect of
buddhas and bodhisattvas and are more enduring.5
. . . .
Tiilkus and tulpas appear again in Walter Evans-Wentz' [also helped translate Book Of The Dead] (1878-1965) version of The Tibetan Book of Great Liberation ( 1954), where he built on David-Neel's distinction ... "The Tibetans call the One Mind's concretized visualization the Khorva (Hkhorva), equivalent to the Sanskrit Sangsara [samsara]; that of an incarnate deity, like the Dalai or Tashi Lama [Panchen Lama], they call a Tul-ku (Sprul-sku), and that of a magician a Tul-pa (Sprul-pa), meaning a magically produced illusion or creation.7"
It looks like David-Neel equated Tulpas to thought-forms which were at least a thing heavily discussed in the Book of the Dead, and Thoughtforms were more in line with Theosophical metaphysics (which was Russian-American). Since we know that Samdup studied Theosophy, that may be a factor.
This final class in the series explains the methods people use for creating tulpas. While it will touch on the psychological perspective, it is focused on the metaphysical acts of creating a tulpa from start to finish. It is recommended that the people who wish to attend this class have been to the first two, and it is vital that they have at le...